When I was at Mount Edgcumbe yesterday I noted that two of the single white japonica camellias were beginning to open. 10th November is early for japonicas to be opening but that wasn’t them main reason I chose to dig a little deeper. The two plants both had names on them that appeared to be wrong. One was labelled ‘Hectotiana’ (5A-035), an old French variety described in the register as semi-double. The other had been labelled ‘Eric Baker’ (2E-014), a name that was given to a camellia already established but not registered as ‘Trewithen White’. ‘Trewithen White’ is fully double.
Both incorrectly labelled then, but could they be the same variety, even if I didn’t have a name for it? I took photos of the flowers and cut a couple of shoots from each so that I could compare them and take side by side pictures.
The 5A-035 plant has more trumpet shaped flowers with less flared stamens.
The shoots are similar but there are small but consistent differences. The petioles of 5A-035 are often twisted so that the leaves are at right angles to the stem. The petioles and midrib of 5A-035 are yellowish. The leaves of 5A-035 are slightly more glossy. The flower buds of 2E-014 are more rounded, less pointed. The leaves in both specimens are around 10 x 5cm. The flowers are 8-10cm wide.
As is so often the case, the differences between two varieties are clear enough when they are side by side but would be impossible to describe meaningfully for each individually, such that they could be distinguished from a description. Different growing conditions would also very likely produce bigger differences within the same variety than are apparent between these two similar varieties.
In conclusion, I have two single white varieties and no name. There are a number of other single whites in the collection, ‘Devonia’, ‘Besant’s White Czar’, ‘Henry Turnbull’, ‘White Lily’, ‘Hakutsuru’, ‘Francis Hanger; all with similar flowers but much later. If you know a very early flowering single white I’d be glad of any suggestions. Knowing that the 2E-014 plant came from Trewithen Garden, I must enquire of them whether they have anything that fits.
Jim's Camellias 
I thought of three others that you do not mention. Are they not in the collection? I grow ‘Charlotte de Rothschild’ which can be early but has a tighter stamen cluster, so not that, and also ‘Yukimi Guruma’ which is quite similar to 2E-014. And then there’s the great umbrella name ‘Alba Simplex’… Did any conclusions on that one come from the Rosemoor comparisons? BTW Nick Creek grew a lot of seedlings at Stonehurst and quite a few came out as single whites, though I doubt any got to you.
LikeLike
Considering that there are two ‘Charlotte de Rothschild’s right alongside 2E-014 I really shouldn’t have left them off the list. They are later in bloom and similar but certainly not the same. ‘Yukimi-guruma’ has a flatter flower and is also not out yet, there are several in the collection, mostly originally labelled something different, such as ‘Devonia’, ‘Alba Simplex’, ‘Amabilis’. I’m dubious about it being possible to be certain that anything can be directly linked to the original ‘Alba Simplex’, it seems altogether too likely that there are quite a few seedlings of single whites around and that ‘Alba Simplex’ would be the red hot favourite name to stick on them, whatever their heritage. I don’t think the Rosemoor exercise did much more than open peoples eyes to the confusion. One of Nick’s single whites is at Mt Edgcumbe, two plants of ‘Duckyl’s Belle’.
LikeLike
About ‘Alba Simplex’, I agree that there’s a lot of confusion. Yet the original illustration and text from Chandler shows interesting features : almost bullate recurvate/twisted dark leaves, coarse serration, thick and coriaceous with proeminent veins, short stamen cylinder with green stigma same size or slightly longer than the stamens, bloom opening as a cylindric cup then flat.
Chandler notes that it may sometimes show a pink stripe or dot, which I have seen twice here.
Berlese adds that the habit is similar to ‘Variegata’ (therefore wide and bushy)
These features are still visible on the picture in Tom Durrant’s book, but not in Trehane and Philipps (which probably is Yukimiguruma). And they are not that obvious in paintings from Loddiges or Bolweiler
I do believe that the ‘Alba Simplex’ in Trewithen is the right one, and also the one in Windsor park. In Trévarez we got it from Hillier in 1972, and it shows all the features from Berlese and chandler descriptions, especially the ugly coarse dark green leaves and wide bushy habit (sometimes almost weeping, but with a rather thick wood).
René Mahuas notes that the one in Trebah probably is ‘Devonia’
LikeLike
Dear Jim,
Please note that the problem with ‘Hectotiana’ is old and identified in France, but so far unresolved.
In french Brittany and in Nantes, this variety has been sold by Guichard Soeurs and later by Thoby. Guichard had 2 mother plants under this name: #265, listed as “semi-double to single white”, and #349, identified as Hectotiana in 1987 and listed as “single white similar to Madame Lourmand”. In Thoby’s catalogue 1993, #265 is pictured and described as “single, sometimes semi-double white, mid-season”.
In Nantes Botanic Gardens, the camellia #1140 was originally labelled as ‘Hectotiana,’ but the name has been changed to ‘Le Lys’ in 2010
In Nantes Cimetière Parc there is a ‘Hectotiana’ which is semi-double and does look a lot like ‘Le Lys’. THis plant has 3 rows of petals like Hectot’s original description, but no petaloid. Note that in the original description, ‘Hectotiana’ is compared to a white ‘Variegata’, which would be much different from all the plants we know of now. In 1931 it was considered as one of the brightest whites, much more white than ‘Alba Plena’ (which is no wonder, actually)
In Trévarez, I got one plant from Nantes, which is the same as yours and the same in La Roche-Jagu castle: a single white with more or less 8-9 rounded petals and a slightly conical shape, most probably Guichard #349
It looks like what I got under the name ‘Amabilis’ and actually looks a lot like ‘Alba Simplex’. But my plants are too young for a proper comparison of habit and foliage, this is just an hypothesis so far.
As a conclusion, the only plants that may actually be ‘Hectotiana’ (if the original Hectot and Favre description is accurate) is Nantes #1140 and the one in the Cimetière-Parc, which are now labeled ‘Le Lys’! Yet they do not fit exactly the description, as the inner petals are crinkled like ‘Le Lys’ and not channelled as stated by Favre. Then ‘Hectotiana’ may be lost and replaced by something else, either an other cultivar or Guichard #349 which may have been an unnamed seedling…
Sorry for not helping much 🙂
Regards,
Pascal Vieu
LikeLike
It is helpful insofar that if you in France have so much confusion around one variety, I don’t need to worry too much that it may be wrong here. ‘Le Lys’ is in the collection and if it is correct is very different, a flattish semi-double with very big leaves. As you say, if ‘Hectotiana’ was originally described as being like ‘Variegata’, it would have been semi-double, much like Le Lys, and nothing like the plant I’ve got.
LikeLike
Hi Jim
No white singles out here. We have Devonia and Frances Hanger. Also Charlotte de Rothschild but she is a williamsii.
But we do have a Yoibijin seedling which is a white single Japonica. Never been named but looks very like yours. It grows in the hedge by the side of the road. Not out yet but will be soon. I’ll send a pic when it is out.
All best
MartinPetherick
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s the apparent ease with which single camellias produce seed and therefore potential progeny, that makes me doubt whether you can ever be certain about any of them. I’d be glad to see a picture though, and can you include some foliage with the flower please.
LikeLike
Another thought. We have it here. Not out yet. A japonica ‘White Swan’. Much later we also get Rogetsu.
Oh yes and C de Rothschild ( checks notes) is a japonica not a williamsii although ours foliage-wise looks very much like a williamsii.
LikeLike
Hi Jim.
Late to the discourse but I have Cornish Excellence(from Trewithen ) which has been in flower since November and ,whilst it is unlikely to be one of yours, is very similar . As a seedling discovered during a Camellia Society meeting its parentage may give an indication that is useful to you?
LikeLike
I know of ‘Cornish Excellence’ though it is not in the Mt Edgcumbe collection. I had rather cynically written it off as a name that the Trewithen nursery had made up for a variety they’d lost the name of. Interesting to hear its back story; it’s not in the Register. I must contact Gary and ask him if he knows any more about it. The two plants at Mt E. labelled ‘Eric Baker’ both have Trewithen as their source in the collection records so there is a very real possibility that they are Cornish Excellence.
LikeLike
Just to add some clarity I purchased my plants from Luke(Trewithen wholesale as was) and got the back story from Mike Snelgove (Trewidden).
LikeLike